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Mordheim Redux
Ok, So I'm going to try and gauge interest in running a brief Mordheim campaign in the store. I would run it between round 2 and 3 of the Fantasy campaign (so it would be starting in another 4 weeks).
Mordheim is a skirmish / squad version of warhammer fantasy. Many of the factions from Fantasy make an appearance in Mordheim. You build a team of characters and henchmen that can level up and evolve as you play.
The rules are free and online. All you would need to play are the models for your warband. Warbands typically need 4-5 heroes of various types, a few dog models (depending on which warband you are using) and a few henchmen of various types. Some warbands can get a single Ogre like model, but usually you will have to be wildly successful to hire these monsters / mercenaries. I'm pretty sure that there isn't a faction that needs more than 20 models (unless you are playing Skaven and end up with the rat summoning spell, or playing skaven and by some miracle find the halfling cookbook).
Each player will start with a 500gp Warband using the standard campaign warband construction rules included in the rule book. We will do random pairings between the players that show up to play.
Before moving on to the house rules I'm going to propose, I'll make one warning. Mordheim is a ton of fun, but it isn't a particularly balanced game. There is a ton of luck involved, both in an individual game and during the post game resolution. A botched serious injury roll can tank your entire band, advance rolls will determine your warbands long term viability, and on the flip side occasionally one of your models will just refuse to die against impossible odds and be the star of the show for no good reason. Don't read too much into it if your leader dies on his first outing, or if your whole warband refuses to charge a lowly zombie.
I'm setting a few house rules:
-- Dwarves and Orcs will be able to hire one more of their lowest tier heroes than their rules say they may. This does not increase the overall warband size. The number of heroes that your warband has determines your income; lets just say that Orcs and Goblins have it hard enough without being poor as well.
-- You may retire a warband at any time and make a new one with the starting gp value. In Mordheim you can lose gracefully (coming out nearly as well as if you had won, sometimes better than the winner), but it is also possible to suffer a crippling defeating at any moment. This should probably only be used if your band has lost its leader and doesn't have the the funds to replace him, or under similar circumstances.
-- While I'm pretty sure this is how the new rules are supposed to be interpreted; we will be doing routing as follows. On the turn that you have to take your first route check, if you pass the route check you may not auto route until your next turn. In scenarios where you may decide to route at any time this rule is lifted. Fluff wise this represents the time it takes to organize a retreat, as opposed to your forces spontaneously withdrawing. Game wise it makes the game more exciting and brutal.
-- WYSIWIG is going to be best effort. If you are fielding an Orc boss, make it look like an orc boss. However, don't be too worried about the weapon types (there are more weapon types in Mordhiem than in warhammer fantasy, so it is difficult to require particular weapons). Best rule of thumb is to try and keep everything as easy to distinguish as possible for your opponent. Painting your models to distinguish henchmen squads and individual characters helps a ton.
-- Because of the RPG nature of Mordheim all games need to happen in the store, and if possible all advancement rolls should happen with your opponent and one other (hopefully a player) as witness. Roster sheets will be kept in a folder near the back of the store. Mordheim can be a cruel mistress and sometimes even the best of us might want to fudge a few serious injury chart rolls, or the like.
-- I would like to stick with only official expansions, I'll post the warbands I'll allow and their sources when I get a chance to review them. I know that people are going to point to the lustria 'book' but it is a fan made expansion. I'd rather stick to GW made broken stuff than include fan made broken stuff. Not everything on the specialist games website is canon, and being the little despot that I am might not allow all of the canon rules. For instance, since we will only be doing city battles mounts will be frowned on. Also, we will be not be keeping track of insanity (a mechanic that was added late in the games life).
-- No dramatis personae will be allowed in the campaign. For the most part they are undercosted no brainer unkillable death machines.
I'm also toying with the idea of a painted warband bonus. The kind of thing that I have in mind is: If you have a fully painted warband you can get a single reroll on the serious injury table during the campaign (you must take the second result). Warbands are typically small enough that it isn't a huge hardship to paint a single band.
If people are interested in playing in the Mordheim campaign, or have comments feel free to drop a post in this thread. Anyway, stay tuned I should have the Dirty Vulture approved warbands listed tonight or tomorrow.
[quote="Griff"]
I'm setting a few house rules:
-- Dwarves and Orcs will be able to hire one more of their lowest tier heroes than their rules say they may. This does not increase the overall warband size. The number of heroes that your warband has determines your income; lets just say that Orcs and Goblins have it hard enough without being poor as well.
[/quote]
Told ya.
woo! I am totally give the orcs another shot, an extra hero will go a ways to giving the ol' orcs a fighting chance. I'm interested to see how many people are up for this, Mordheim is a really fun game if you don't take it too seriously.
I have a couple recommended fixes though to keep things balanced, I submit that skaven get a maximum of five search dice from their heroes at the end of a given battle, keeps them from having the potential to get more then anyone else while still having 6 heroes and being able to loose one without it affecting your number of dice. The other thing is that slings are way to cheap for how good they are compared to other weapons, so either they should get raised in price or other basic missile weapons should lower in price to reflect there worth.
Count me in. I still have my original rulebook. I think its still good.
Count me in. I still have my original rulebook. I think its still good.
[quote="MrJoe"]
I have a couple recommended fixes though to keep things balanced, I submit that skaven get a maximum of five search dice from their heroes at the end of a given battle, keeps them from having the potential to get more then anyone else while still having 6 heroes and being able to loose one without it affecting your number of dice.[/quote]
Well whaddaya know!
[quote="Charlie"]Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:19 pm
As one who ran a Mordheim campaign, I HIGHLY suggest making a couple modifications:
1) Some armies can only get 4 heroes (orks, dwarves I believe, etc) when starting a warband. Let those have a 5th.
2) One army (possibly more...not sure) notably Skaven (No I'm not trying to mess up your fun Eric :)) can take SIX heroes when starting a warband. Make it so they can only take 5.[/quote]
So apparently my ideas DON'T suck!
Just ashame people don't take me more seriously...
[quote="MrJoe"]
I have a couple recommended fixes though to keep things balanced, I submit that skaven get a maximum of five search dice from their heroes at the end of a given battle, keeps them from having the potential to get more then anyone else while still having 6 heroes and being able to loose one without it affecting your number of dice.[/quote]
Well whaddaya know!
[quote="Charlie"]Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:19 pm
As one who ran a Mordheim campaign, I HIGHLY suggest making a couple modifications:
1) Some armies can only get 4 heroes (orks, dwarves I believe, etc) when starting a warband. Let those have a 5th.
2) One army (possibly more...not sure) notably Skaven (No I'm not trying to mess up your fun Eric :)) can take SIX heroes when starting a warband. Make it so they can only take 5.[/quote]
So apparently my ideas DON'T suck!
Just ashame people don't take me more seriously...
@archangelsariel: The PDFs have numerous errata included. Most changes are subtle. When we played before we compared the online rules to Vollingers original rule book. It is similar but some basic rules and tables have changed. Off the top of my head the wryd stone payout chart and the route rules are different.
@Charlie: It was a good suggestion, but I wanted to find out for myself. If you are worried about being taken seriously maybe you should behave a little more maturely than you have today?
@Joe: I think that searching with 6 heroes for skaven is fine. I only had a surplus of cash in the first couple rounds of our mini campaign (and that is because I won big in Warp stone hunt and because everybody was still figuring the game out). Also when you break 15 members (something skaven will do very quickly) in the warband you don't even notice the extra die.
I think that slings are fine, I don't remember them standing out as excellent weapons when using them (even after rolling a BS increase for my henchmen). They are also generally not included in tournament builds, so I'm inclined not to worry about them. The table should be terrain heavy, and hiding basically negates shooting as it is.
In my experience the Art of Silent Death and Tail Fighting will have a much bigger influence on the game than slings. Tip to Skaven players: Buy these skills first. Heck, if you roll the teleport into close combat spell for your wizard give him Art of Silent Death instead of an additional spell if you roll a skill advance. Fighting Claws + Art of Silent Death + Tail Fighting w/ Club = death machine.
I'm generally inclined to avoid nerfing anything or making any big changes to the game. To those who are not Joe, keep in mind that I won't be playing with Skaven, so I'm not trying to promote any sort of advantage for myself.
@archangelsariel: The PDFs have numerous errata included. Most changes are subtle. When we played before we compared the online rules to Vollingers original rule book. It is similar but some basic rules and tables have changed. Off the top of my head the wryd stone payout chart and the route rules are different.
@Charlie: It was a good suggestion, but I wanted to find out for myself. If you are worried about being taken seriously maybe you should behave a little more maturely than you have today?
@Joe: I think that searching with 6 heroes for skaven is fine. I only had a surplus of cash in the first couple rounds of our mini campaign (and that is because I won big in Warp stone hunt and because everybody was still figuring the game out). Also when you break 15 members (something skaven will do very quickly) in the warband you don't even notice the extra die.
I think that slings are fine, I don't remember them standing out as excellent weapons when using them (even after rolling a BS increase for my henchmen). They are also generally not included in tournament builds, so I'm inclined not to worry about them. The table should be terrain heavy, and hiding basically negates shooting as it is.
In my experience the Art of Silent Death and Tail Fighting will have a much bigger influence on the game than slings. Tip to Skaven players: Buy these skills first. Heck, if you roll the teleport into close combat spell for your wizard give him Art of Silent Death instead of an additional spell if you roll a skill advance. Fighting Claws + Art of Silent Death + Tail Fighting w/ Club = death machine.
I'm generally inclined to avoid nerfing anything or making any big changes to the game. To those who are not Joe, keep in mind that I won't be playing with Skaven, so I'm not trying to promote any sort of advantage for myself.
[quote="Griff"]@Charlie: It was a good suggestion, but I wanted to find out for myself. If you are worried about being taken seriously maybe you should behave a little more maturely than you have today?
[/quote]
Where would the fun in that be?
The other modifications sounded great BTW.
[quote="Griff"]@Charlie: It was a good suggestion, but I wanted to find out for myself. If you are worried about being taken seriously maybe you should behave a little more maturely than you have today?
[/quote]
Where would the fun in that be?
The other modifications sounded great BTW.
Ok, at first I was like, ho-hmm, I don't know, so many games to choose from, Mordheim, hmm.... Now I'm all like "dust off the Orks or dust off the Skaven???" My Sisters have pretty much entirely been converted to Empire Swords'men' but maybe.... Oh geez! What to choose!!!!!
Yay!
By the way, are Dwarfs a voluntary choice, or must you play them as punishment for crimes in a former campaign? :P :P :P
Ok, at first I was like, ho-hmm, I don't know, so many games to choose from, Mordheim, hmm.... Now I'm all like "dust off the Orks or dust off the Skaven???" My Sisters have pretty much entirely been converted to Empire Swords'men' but maybe.... Oh geez! What to choose!!!!!
Yay!
By the way, are Dwarfs a voluntary choice, or must you play them as punishment for crimes in a former campaign? :P :P :P
Sounds kinda fun, but would you have to use the actual Mordheim pieces or could you just use normal Fantasy dudes??
Sounds kinda fun, but would you have to use the actual Mordheim pieces or could you just use normal Fantasy dudes??
As mentioned in the above post we are going to try for best effort WYSIWYG, so Warhammer fantasy minis are a perfect choice for building a Mordheim band. Just try to select models that fit the role, and try to avoid ambiguities.
Mordheim is usually played pretty strictly where every week you'd be modeling up the members of your party to reflect their equipment, but that can get expensive and cumbersome fast.
I need to find actual men rules for Mordheim....good ol' lizards.
I need to find actual men rules for Mordheim....good ol' lizards.
[quote="copperdusk"]Sounds kinda fun, but would you have to use the actual Mordheim pieces or could you just use normal Fantasy dudes??[/quote]
Normal fantasy dudes work great as long as you don't confuse your opponent. If you try to use a standard zombie model as an armored vampire hero, you would have problems, but if it's a vampire holding a sword when she really has a pistol, you're not going to have a problem. Sticking to Games Workshop models tends to keep things looking cool in what is a very visual game. Often substitutes from other game systems can make things look kind of dumb. I agree with having some form of easy distinction between heroes and henchmen can be a real good idea. I used to paint the names of my heroes on the fronts of their bases so the opponent could see them, as well as adding cooler modelling details. Keeping things easy for your opponent to tell who's who should be your goal in model choice.
I'm in for sure. I only have high elf models so i will have to start from scratch.
not sure who I will play I am thinking either possesed or sisters of sigmar.
keep me posted and ill start modeling right away.
-Wynter
[quote="wynterweather"]I'm in for sure. I only have high elf models so i will have to start from scratch.
not sure who I will play I am thinking either possesed or sisters of sigmar.
keep me posted and ill start modeling right away.
-Wynter[/quote]
Yeah I'm in the same boat, all I have are lizardmen models. I am thinking of starting dwarfs though.
I'm in for sure. I only have high elf models so i will have to start from scratch.
not sure who I will play I am thinking either possesed or sisters of sigmar.
keep me posted and ill start modeling right away.
-Wynter
Ok, so here are the bands we will be including in the Campaign.
Found in the Core Rules:
Reiklanders
Middenheimers
Marienburgers
Cult of the Possessed
Witch Hunters
Sisters of Sigmar
The Undead
Skaven
Found in Empire in Flames:
Beastmen
Carnival of Chaos
Found in updates:
Dwarf Treasure Hunters
Orcs and Goblins
Skaven Clan Pestilens
Shadow Warriors
I think that covers most of the of the races while avoiding some of the weird ones. If you have a big interest in playing Pit Fighters, Amazons, or the like let me know and I'll take a closer look at their rules.
------------------------------------
In other news I think I've settled on how I'm going to configure my Warband.
Heroes:
Vampire
Sword
Club
Bow
Necromancer
Dagger x 2
Bow
Dreg x 3
Club
Dagger
Short Bow
Henchmen:
Ghoul x 4
Zombie x 5
The following is a description of my strategy, most will apply to any Warband:
General plan is a front line of Zombies, a second line of Ghouls, and a third line of Heroes. Fear and counter charges will be the plan.
If my necro gets reanimate I'll concentrate on an ablative zombie horde. If my necromancer gets Spell of Doom I'll concentrate on dire wolves / fast units to take advantage of this absurdly good ranged attack. Otherwise the necromancer will just stay back and shoot his bow not ever having much of an effect on the battle.
My ghouls will not be grouped together, they will all be separate. The idea is to hopefully get an early 'this lads got talent' and swap out a dreg for him. If I roll a good advance I'll recruit new members into that 'group'. Generally you want to keep your henchmen in larger groups to avoid them losing their xp, but in this case my heroes (besides the vampire) are bad enough that I'm willing to gamble.
The zombies are not there to kill things, they are there to die. In Mordheim somebody has to lose models for the game to end. I could have purchased another ghoul or a dire wolf which will probably kill more and be more useful than 5 zombies. Instead I'll use the zombies to draw missile fire, block charge lanes, tie up enemies, setup counter charges, and to (more importantly) reach route conditions without losing too many of my heroes if I can help it.
If I'm successful early on I'll want to invest in Heavy Armor for my Vampire and Hunting Arrows for my Necromancer (assuming he doesn't roll Spell of Doom). Lucky Charms are well worth their money as well. Swapping out the daggers for real weapons is a good investment as well.
For skills, I'm looking at resilient and step aside for my Vampire. That should make him quite hard to kill in close combat. Instant up, Sprint, Scale Shear Surfaces, strike to injure, and strong man are all on my radar. For the dregs step aside is the only skill that really stands out for me (as they can't get ranged skills). If a ghoul gets promoted I'd probably give him the strength and combat, Resilient, Mighty Strike, and Step Aside would be my picks (in no particular order).
Ok, so here are the bands we will be including in the Campaign.
Found in the Core Rules:
Reiklanders
Middenheimers
Marienburgers
Cult of the Possessed
Witch Hunters
Sisters of Sigmar
The Undead
Skaven
Found in Empire in Flames:
Beastmen
Carnival of Chaos
Found in updates:
Dwarf Treasure Hunters
Orcs and Goblins
Skaven Clan Pestilens
Shadow Warriors
I think that covers most of the of the races while avoiding some of the weird ones. If you have a big interest in playing Pit Fighters, Amazons, or the like let me know and I'll take a closer look at their rules.
------------------------------------
In other news I think I've settled on how I'm going to configure my Warband.
Heroes:
Vampire
Sword
Club
Bow
Necromancer
Dagger x 2
Bow
Dreg x 3
Club
Dagger
Short Bow
Henchmen:
Ghoul x 4
Zombie x 5
The following is a description of my strategy, most will apply to any Warband:
General plan is a front line of Zombies, a second line of Ghouls, and a third line of Heroes. Fear and counter charges will be the plan.
If my necro gets reanimate I'll concentrate on an ablative zombie horde. If my necromancer gets Spell of Doom I'll concentrate on dire wolves / fast units to take advantage of this absurdly good ranged attack. Otherwise the necromancer will just stay back and shoot his bow not ever having much of an effect on the battle.
My ghouls will not be grouped together, they will all be separate. The idea is to hopefully get an early 'this lads got talent' and swap out a dreg for him. If I roll a good advance I'll recruit new members into that 'group'. Generally you want to keep your henchmen in larger groups to avoid them losing their xp, but in this case my heroes (besides the vampire) are bad enough that I'm willing to gamble.
The zombies are not there to kill things, they are there to die. In Mordheim somebody has to lose models for the game to end. I could have purchased another ghoul or a dire wolf which will probably kill more and be more useful than 5 zombies. Instead I'll use the zombies to draw missile fire, block charge lanes, tie up enemies, setup counter charges, and to (more importantly) reach route conditions without losing too many of my heroes if I can help it.
If I'm successful early on I'll want to invest in Heavy Armor for my Vampire and Hunting Arrows for my Necromancer (assuming he doesn't roll Spell of Doom). Lucky Charms are well worth their money as well. Swapping out the daggers for real weapons is a good investment as well.
For skills, I'm looking at resilient and step aside for my Vampire. That should make him quite hard to kill in close combat. Instant up, Sprint, Scale Shear Surfaces, strike to injure, and strong man are all on my radar. For the dregs step aside is the only skill that really stands out for me (as they can't get ranged skills). If a ghoul gets promoted I'd probably give him the strength and combat, Resilient, Mighty Strike, and Step Aside would be my picks (in no particular order).
I'll probably be ignored again buuutttt:
Shadow Warriors = BAD idea
I'll probably be ignored again buuutttt:
Shadow Warriors = BAD idea
I think as long as people can accept the fact that we're playing a game as "fair and balanced" as Fox News, then crazy powerful stuff (or stupidly underpowered) is not so bad. I feel it's more about playing to personal taste and enjoying the ride.
Mordheim is one of several GW games more about drama, awesome terrain usage and acting out warlike fantasies with small bands of cool little soldiers. I'm unfamiliar with Shadow Warriors, but I'm ok with having my band crappy over-priced, out-numbered and under-gunned Sisters run screaming from the board more often than not.
I think as long as people can accept the fact that we're playing a game as "fair and balanced" as Fox News, then crazy powerful stuff (or stupidly underpowered) is not so bad. I feel it's more about playing to personal taste and enjoying the ride.
Mordheim is one of several GW games more about drama, awesome terrain usage and acting out warlike fantasies with small bands of cool little soldiers. I'm unfamiliar with Shadow Warriors, but I'm ok with having my band crappy over-priced, out-numbered and under-gunned Sisters run screaming from the board more often than not.
Hey everybody!
I've got my Warband ready. Just need to paint 4 models and I'll be ready to go! Tunnel Snakes Rule!
The plan is to start this Sunday. It will be a more or less open format. If we have enough players to warrant it I'll setup pairings tournament style. Otherwise, it will be up to the players to find an opponent and to avoid playing the same opponent multiple times in a row.
Hey everybody!
I've got my Warband ready. Just need to paint 4 models and I'll be ready to go! Tunnel Snakes Rule!
The plan is to start this Sunday. It will be a more or less open format. If we have enough players to warrant it I'll setup pairings tournament style. Otherwise, it will be up to the players to find an opponent and to avoid playing the same opponent multiple times in a row.
[quote="Griff"]
I'm setting a few house rules:
-- Dwarves and Orcs will be able to hire one more of their lowest tier heroes than their rules say they may. This does not increase the overall warband size. The number of heroes that your warband has determines your income; lets just say that Orcs and Goblins have it hard enough without being poor as well.
[/quote]
Told ya.
___________________
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